Dabber Dan's one run QWET

[Graywolf 1,434]

ES says the sample is on Rick's GC list but no firm run schedule.

 

One of the experiment partners supplying the material that we extracted, did pick up his sample for his and his brother's anecdotal and lab testing.

 

He was favorably impressed with the aromatics and taste, and I note rated it as AAA on other forums he posts on. 

 

Anecdotal testing didn't produce a religious experience, but was done after previously medicating, by yet another high tolerance patient, soooo we still need lab numbers to add perspective.

 

Let's not lose perspective however, because I've shared far lower quality concentrates with lower tolerance patients, and had to drive them home afterwards.  The experiment produced a damn nice aromatic and tasty extract, but we are looking for added subtleties from using NO2. 

[P8ntxtremist 602]

It's N20 not NO2

[P8ntxtremist 602]

Any news on the lab test, graywolf?

[Graywolf 1,434]

Any news on the lab test, graywolf?

Nope, but I promise to pass on the results, when they are given to Eloquentsolution and when she relays them on to me.  I checked with her, she said it was on the list.

 

No results from the second half of the sample to WA WA land thus far either, but an anecdotal evaluation of AAA posted on other forums from the test partner receiving them.  With other excitement in their lives at the moment, I suspect that sample stands a greater than 50% chance of no longer being extant.

 

Alas when I decided to run the second half of the extraction, so we had more material for testing, I discovered a well meaning helper had discarded the material from the first extraction, sooo I am limited in options.

[P8ntxtremist 602]

Bummer about never getting those results.

[Graywolf 1,434]

Bummer about never getting those results.

Yeah, a bummer putting that much effort in and having it fall apart downstream.  Anecdotal evidence is simply that everyone liked it, some a lot.

 

The employee I gave the lab sample to on our end, is no longer here and the sample is lost.  The second sample that went to my experiment partner supplying the material, got delayed due to a family emergency and was consumed before testing.

 

The good news, is that I have plenty of N2O cartridges and we now have a Heidolph rotary evaporator available to the experiment, as well as a GC/MS available for testing, in addition to our SPR GC.

 

Sooooo, lets take another run at it.  The key part is to start with some good material.  Let me see what is available...........

[MimiEmu 11]

Hi Graywolf,

 

What was the outcome of your further tests with the ISI whipper?  Is there another thread maybe? 

 

Mimi

[Graywolf 1,434]

That's a good question and the answer is that I haven't rerun the experiment and no longer have a lab.  The above lab also closed and my first partner in this experiment committed suicide, orphaning his poor Dobbie female. 

 

I don't attribute any of that bad luck to the concentrate and everyone who tried it, liked it, but I have no empirical analysis showing  any effects from the N20.    

 

I do still have the whipper and some N2O carts and could run it through my Extract Craft vacuum still in my kitchen, but no way to analyze it.  If any of ya'll readers have access to a GC for the analysis part, I will run the first part again, using my own material and provide you with samples for GC and personal anecdotal testing.  

[MimiEmu 11]

So sorry, this seems to have turned into the Project from Hell.  Its been 5 years since the last posting, so this idea didn't seem to go viral, I wonder why.  Its a great  quick process that looks effective for an EtOH solvent bath  + shear forces + pressure.  I'm curious what the pressure difference is between the N20 and C02 cartridges - which one delivers more punch to pressurize the cellular walls.  

 

Here's my idea of a protocol - 

 

1. Use humidity control bags to attain a normalized humidity level in the plant days prior to the extraction.

2. Freeze the plant to ice over the chlorophyll. Freeze the Whipper as well.

3. Create a dry ice bath with the EtOH, let it settle to a slow boil (at temp..)

4. place  3 oz of plant in the 1L whipper.

5. Pour in the bath sans dryice (strainer used here..), screw on the lid, start a 2 minute clock

6. Administer the 1st charge with N20/C02.

7. Shake vigorously for 10 seconds.

8. Administer the 2nd charge with H20/C02.

9. Shake and let stand to complete the 2 minutes.

10. Exhaust and Pour contents through fine mesh strainer,  saving the plant material for a long EtOH bath. (for FECO)

11. Repeat..

 

Unknowns are (1) the pressure differences between charger types, and efficacy of Nitrous vs C02 as an expansive gas when exhausting. (2) Is there a chemical advantage to N20 over C02?  I'm curious how strong those consumer whippers are in tensile strength. 

 

From an engineering standpoint, is it safe to use 3 or 4 chargers per load?  User manuals on these consumer cans say 2 is the limit for the 1L can.

 

[Graywolf 1,434]

2.  Load the Whipper before freezing the material and don't let it thaw before extraction.

5.  At dry ice sublimation temperatures (-78.5C) extraction will take longer than two minutes.  More like 15/20 min.

6.  It isn't the pressure that we seek, it was effects from the N20 laughing gas. 

 

The Whipper will only hold one cart at the pressure it operates at.

[P8ntxtremist 602]

Your gonna blow your hand off my dude. You should avoid this tech

[P8ntxtremist 602]

@EDDIEKIRK would you pull this down? Now I'm concerned for people's safety.

[MimiEmu 11]

Hi P8,

 

So, something changed in 5 years, what have you learned?  

 

 

[EDDIEKIRK 11,915]

On 1/9/2021 at 6:19 AM, P8ntxtremist said:

@EDDIEKIRK would you pull this down? Now I'm concerned for people's safety.

I may close it tomorrow around noon, let's wait and see if someone has a few more questions. Thanks for your concern, standing by.  

 

[Graywolf 1,434]

20 hours ago, P8ntxtremist said:

@EDDIEKIRK would you pull this down? Now I'm concerned for people's safety.

Ummmmm, there is not enough pressure to warrant any great concern.  Why would it be more dangerous than just using the Whippet for whipped cream??

 

[P8ntxtremist 602]

10 minutes ago, Graywolf said:

Ummmmm, there is not enough pressure to warrant any great concern.  Why would it be more dangerous than just using the Whippet for whipped cream??

 

If he's using 3 cartridges in a 1L whipper while maintaining subzero temperatures and stuffing it with 3 ounces, the risk of pressure is far greater than one whippet for whipped cream. They actually had a recall when they designed the isi infusion wand and basket because they didn't account for the extra volume that would take up inside the canister.

[MimiEmu 11]

Hi P8,

 

I'm all ears, listening to what you are saying.  Before moving forward, I'm going to do proper engineering evaluation on all the parts to make stay within specs, not going to push the limits on any piece, so your feedback is well received.  My main concern has been subzero temp on the stainless steel tensile strength so this is going to be a slow step by step process to understand all aspects, like the silicon seals you mentioned.  

 

 

 

 

[Graywolf 1,434]

23 hours ago, P8ntxtremist said:

If he's using 3 cartridges in a 1L whipper while maintaining subzero temperatures and stuffing it with 3 ounces, the risk of pressure is far greater than one whippet for whipped cream. They actually had a recall when they designed the isi infusion wand and basket because they didn't account for the extra volume that would take up inside the canister.

The cartridges are 30 psi, which is not high enough pressure to discharge three cartridges into a mostly full Whippet, nor enough to over pressure the Whippet itself. 

 

The whippet is greater than one atmosphere (14.5 psi) so is a pressure vessel and is therefore required to hold at least 3X the maximum operating pressure, or about 90 psi.  How will you get the Whippet above 30 psi even with 10,000 30 psi cartridges???  

[P8ntxtremist 602]

Good grief. @EDDIEKIRK  90 psi will kill you.  30 psi can kill you.  N20 can also go supercritical. Just respect my request and pull this down. 

[MimiEmu 11]

At some point, trying to add more pressure ends when the pressure in the dispenser is equal to the pressure of a fresh cartridge, which is significant, see Ref1  below.  I think I read somewhere in my searches that the maximum pressurization in the dispenser has to be 3x that of a cartridge.  Does that sound right?  I'm trying to locate the US Gov's standards for these devices, I think its a DOT standard. GW, where would you look for finding engineering data on these dispensers?

 

Interesting!  My ICO stainless steel dispenser says it engineered for 100 bar.  That equates to 1450 PSI.  So if 6 atm converts to 88.14 psi, how many cartridges will it take to reach 1450 psi?  Assuming this is linear (GW?), 1450/88.14 is 16.45 cartridges.

 

I'm fine with taking this thread down, we can discuss in private email.

 

 

Ref1

https://khymos.org/2010/08/21/wonders-of-extraction-pressure/
A single N2O charger contains 8 g of gas corresponding to 0.1818 moles or a volume of 4.1 L at 25 °C and 1 atm pressure. The volume of the chargers is 0.01 L which gives an impressive initial pressure in the chargers of 445 atm! With an approximate volume of 0.7 L the pressure in an empty whipper charged with a single charge would be nearly 6 atm.

[Graywolf 1,434]

I asked to reopen this thread to clear up a misunderstanding about pressure.  My information was also incorrect on cart pressure being at 30 psi.  It is more like 0.6 in3 of gas at 700 psi.

 

The whippet is designed to operate at 30 psi and is all over at least the US dispensing whipped cream.  As an ASME Section VIII pressure vessel, it must be capable of 3x its maximum operating pressure, or 90 psi to be rated at 30 psi.  That doesn’t mean it can be operated at 90 psi, for that it would have to be capable of 270 psi.

 

My 1 pint Whippet holds four cups of water, so when full at one pint, it has room for another pint or about 48.125 in3 head space.  One 8 gram N20 cartridge raises that head space pressure approximately 14.5 psi, so it takes one 16 gram cart, or two 8 gram carts to reach 30 psi and three would put it at about 45 psi. 

 

My Whippet is robust and will clearly hold 45 psi, though I don’t recommend operating one above its design pressure of 30 psi.

 

More to the question, as I stated previously, 30 psi pressure is not going to have significant effect on the EtOH extraction, if there is any benefit, it would ostensibly lie with any catalyzing action from the nitrous oxide, because after purging it is gone.

 

That leaves the issue about using extra carts to achieve higher pressures  moot.

[P8ntxtremist 602]

Having personally seen a whipper balloon out the bottom and almost explode, I have to disagree that the point is moot. Thank you as always for the wisdom and guidance graywolf. I have enjoyed information and experiments from you for years. I just saw someone interested in exploring past the parameters that I know are safe. Cheers and best wishes. 

[Graywolf 1,434]

My Whippet has a concave bottom and the lid is the weak link.  Are you sure it was a Whippet?

 

The moot point is that since there is no reason to pressurize beyond 30 psi, why would we bother?  

[P8ntxtremist 602]

100 percent. I was standing across from the room from my friend when it happened. I kept the whipper for a long time to show people who didn't believe me. Yes the concave bottom completely ballooned out to a sphere. It made a very loud metal ping when it did. Yes it was stainless.

[MimiEmu 11]

Hi P8, very scary! Do you know if it were aluminium or steel? How many carts were in it when it failed?